Curse

Etrik · Nov 29, 2006, 11:12 PM // 23:12

It's so refreshing to find a thread that reminds me I'm playing Flame Wars and not Guild Wars.

On a side note, [caster] female armor is way too skanky. No sane lady would wear that in day-to-day life. Look at Vesper Lynd in Casino Royale, she dresses conservatively and still looks hot as ****.

Yes, I do agree that male elementalist armor needs an overhaul.. but that'll take some time. C5, maybe.

Just my thoughts, flame away, as seems to be customary in this thread.

GreatLich · Nov 29, 2006, 11:13 PM // 23:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by a_ndy

This isn't really a question of distinction. After all, most of Necris' comments that you attacked were, in fact, in regard to real life women (in his math class as I recall). His preferring not to translate that kind of style into the game world is his own preference. While I personally don't have a problem with it, this is not indicitive of the inability to draw an actual distinction. You may still argue that Necris or anyone else has trouble distinguishing between 3D models and real women, but even if so, that's really not a unique problem. It's the precise reason that people get the giddies out of dancing around half naked in town and screaming "Naked dance party!" Clearly there's some kind of pleasure coming out of that, or they wouldn't be doing it.

You've got it backward actually; Necris sees in-game characters and links that to some IRL event. He's the one infusing 'his' game world with the notion of "(virtual) cross-dressing" (if you will) and then gets offended by it. The game (most mmo's) is about doing in-game stuff that never could happen IRL: magic, dragons and yes "naked dance party!"

Quote:

Originally Posted by Etrik

It's so refreshing to find a thread that reminds me I'm playing Flame Wars and not Guild Wars.

On a side note, [caster] female armor is way too skanky. No sane lady would wear that in day-to-day life. Look at Vesper Lynd in Casino Royale, she dresses conservatively and still looks hot as ****.

No sane lady would attempt to cast Searing Flames on a group of people in IRL either, your point is? Female eles != ladies/girls.

Series · Nov 29, 2006, 11:18 PM // 23:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by GreatLich

I have in my previous posts assumed you and Necris to making the same connection "revealing == skank". I'm repating myself here: this is simply not true...

Right up to the point when Necris starts dating your little sister. Honest answer please: you like the idea of some frustated character like Necris touching your sister? Or even someone like yourself who divides women into categories such as "skank" and "not-skank".

I enjoy many conversations with women, regardless of how they dress. The whole concept of "them v. us" is lost on me...

And your failure to correct me shines in it's absence. I now know how to spell mysogyny, if you're paying attention so will you.

No, you're dangerous because you devaluate individuals based on their wardrobe, of all things... Don't make me invoke Godwin's Law. I reconsider, no need for good old godwin. I just realized that the people who flew planes into the twin towers and you share a trait: the "need" to cover up womens bodies

Are you just a moron? I hope you know that many FEMALES divide women into "skank" and not-"skank'... not to mention many many men. It's a characterization. Grow. Up. Welcome to the real world. If you are too blind to see what is right in front of you, that's fine, but don't criticize us who DON'T live under a rock.

You still spelled "mysogyny" wrong (hint: only 2 y's in that word), but to my amusement, you spelled several other words wrong. Too bad you don't need to graduate from elementary school to post on the internet...

And by implying someone is similar to a terrorist simply proves your complete and udder ignorance. So I guess every single Middle Eastern person is a terrorist? Everybody who doesn't approve of "skanky" clothes is a terrorist? GreatLich, I recommend you stop posting for a while. "It's better to let people assume you are an idiot than to open your mouth and remove all doubt."

GreatLich · Nov 29, 2006, 11:29 PM // 23:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Series

Are you just a moron? I hope you know that many FEMALES divide women into "skank" and not-"skank'... not to mention many many men. It's a characterization. Grow. Up. Welcome to the real world. If you are too blind to see what is right in front of you, that's fine, but don't criticize us who live under a rock.

Fine, I won't, you've obviously not the stomach for it

Quote:

You still spelled "mysogyny" wrong (hint: only 2 y's in that word), but to my amusement, you spelled several other words wrong. Too bad you don't need to graduate from elementary school to post on the internet...

And you still fail to correct me

C'mon really... I'll let you type it for a change, humour me; it's proof you really have been paying attention.
If you feel, somehow, that commenting on my spelling is proof you're not a retard, more power to you.

Quote:

And by implying someone is similar to a terrorist simply proves your complete and udder ignorance. So I guess every single Middle Eastern person is a terrorist? Everybody who doesn't approve of "skanky" clothes is a terrorist? GreatLich, I recommend you stop posting for a while. "It's better to let people assume you are an idiot than to open your mouth and remove all doubt."

But dear Sir, I'm no cow. So I fail to see how my supposed udder comes in to play, perhaps "utter" is the word you're looking for?
Here's how you use it: "You Sir, are an utter retard!"

a_ndy · Nov 29, 2006, 11:48 PM // 23:48

Alright, I think we should all take a step back here and breathe. There's really no need to bust out the serious mud-slinging here. That said, here's my response:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Happy

Mind you many not quite so "hot" girls also dress in mini skirts and i would presume many of them do so because of the style being in fashion, not because they are trying to draw sexual attention. A lot of women care about being fashionable and are not trying to get some sexuality point accross by doing so.

There are plenty of styles that are fasionable that don't involve showing off as much skin as you possibly can. But let's not be coy, women and men who dress provocatively know, even if they deny that it is their primary purpose, what kind of attention they are attracting. In fact, why do we try to dress fashionably at all? It's to draw attention to our appearance. It's to impress upon others that we can and do look good. Provocative clothing is no exception, and simply puts emphasis on different assets... so yes, they are trying to draw that kind of attention. You can argue that this is the fashion of the day and age, but that doesn't negate the underlying trends. Why is it fashionable? Because as many players have already indicated in this very thread, "Sex sells."

Quote:

Originally Posted by Uber Mensche

Also, a ndy gave me some perfect backing for my argument for making a female ele and assassin. The armor is creepy. The guys are creepy. Creepy squared. This is just my personal opinion, but I believe many share it. I don't sit in front of my computer screen for hours on end watching my elementalist dance with no clothes. I PLAY THE GAME. I suggest everyone else does too.

Sound advice.

A nod to Etrik for staying on topic. I really hope we don't need to wait until the 5th campaign to get some refreshingly novel armors though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GreatLich

You've got it backward actually; Necris sees in-game characters and links that to some IRL event. He's the one infusing 'his' game world with the notion of "(virtual) cross-dressing" (if you will) and then gets offended by it. The game (most mmo's) is about doing in-game stuff that never could happen IRL: magic, dragons and yes "naked dance party!"

This is merely a difference how a person chooses to regard their avatar.

Of course the game is about doing things that aren't possible in real life. Games are an outet for creativity, and let us do things that we wish could really happen. That said, most videogames are modelled from the genuine human experience, the characters molded so as to evoke human emotion. If executed correctly, art has the ability to promote a "temporary suspension of disbelief", as they called it in my drama class. So yes, mentally and logically you may make the distinction between in-game and real life characters, but this doesn't negate the ability to relate to them in some way.

Sure a "naked dance party" might never happen in the world (or then again, maybe it can... maybe we just haven't been to the right parties). Regardless, the fact that people act out in games what can't happen in real life in itself makes such a solid distinction between our views of virtual characters and real characters blurrier than seem to want to admit.

Essentially what it seems the Necris flamers (and I don't know why you bother, because he doesn't seem to be following this thread anymore) are trying to say is that there are only two sides:
1. The side that thinks that women should dress provocatively
2. People that either have psychological problems or abnormal sexual preferences

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if this is the case, then it seems significantly more skewed than any objections you have made to my arguments.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darksun

I understand many of the changes that go on from concept to 3D and kind of assume they would happen if this were to happen to my concept. But I can see it (again, with teh exception of the cape) being workable, but recognizeable.
Not, for instance, making them look like Gandalf (who is the man. lol

But why be limited at all? Can't we have both Gandalf and what we've been getting all along? I don't see anything wrong with that.

GreatLich · Nov 29, 2006, 11:53 PM // 23:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by a_ndy

the Necris flamers

Best. Guild. Name. Ever. do you have a tag with that? oh wait: [HAWT]

Warrior Of The Toon · Nov 29, 2006, 11:56 PM // 23:56

Ok so this thread has now fell down to the level of flaming people over a simple typo...

Simply suggesting that all female eles shouldn't have to wear provocative clothing doesn't instantly make someone a misogynist, in fact it may mean that they appreciate female values more - not all women like to be portrayed by the media as almost solely sexual objects who run around only just covering certain parts of flesh.

So how about people grow up, stop trying to insult people and then making feeble comebacks? Let's get back on topic here.

The game's armour designers obvious have gotten into trends which will be hard for them to break, but hopefully we will get some variation in armour soon.

PS: Oh and since you still, apparently, don't know how to spell the word it is misogyny. Just to correct you before this gets closed sometime soon.

Happy · Nov 30, 2006, 12:02 AM // 00:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by GreatLich

Best. Guild. Name. Ever. do you have a tag with that? oh wait: [HAWT]

Nice thinking! Lets run:

2 RaO Thumpers 1xWB 1xBS
2 SF ele's
1 Incoming EF Para
1 Divert Hexes
1 Blight or RC
1 Water Runner

All female chars ofc, preferably as revealing armour as possible.

2 Mesmers (in enchanters armour ofc) with Esurge/SP would work to but you'd need warriors to go with that and female warriors don't have anything "skanky" in their wardrobe :-(

kekekekeke

Darksun · Nov 30, 2006, 12:04 AM // 00:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by a_ndy

But why be limited at all? Can't we have both Gandalf and what we've been getting all along? I don't see anything wrong with that.

That has to do with the vision of the original artist(s) I am a big proponent of the original intent of art. The motif of games is very important. It make games stand out and gives them flavor & distinction. This includes not only the options, but the limitations.

I think Guild Wars' unique style is very important (and very good) This doesn't mean everything is perfect. And it doesn't exclude variation, but I think things should (visually) continue to fall within the framework of world they created. Many people don't care, or simply want "more everything" But I respect the artists restraint more than the option of no limitations.

I honestly feel the Male Elementalists visual style is weak, even within the framework of the game. There are npc characters & elements that make for a better elementalist style than what they have, and I think the Ancient is starting to head that way.

Daemon Dremora · Nov 30, 2006, 12:06 AM // 00:06

i do understand why some people would want to change the armor of the eles, but on the other hand i don't. i think that if the person wants to spend money to look a certain way then that is up to them, and if some people don't like it, then blow it off and continue with your life. it is not affecting you in any serious way. unless your eyes are going to blow out of your head because you looked at something that looks so "skanky".

Jecht Scye · Nov 30, 2006, 12:37 AM // 00:37

What's with the flaming? If someone thinks one way about armor isn't that their opinion? Some guys don't like women to wear something skanky, some guys don't care, and some guys like it. I'm one of those who is on the border of not liking it and don't care. I have a fiancee of two years too, so I'm pretty sure I'm not gay...

a_ndy · Nov 30, 2006, 02:20 AM // 02:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darksun

I think Guild Wars' unique style is very important (and very good) This doesn't mean everything is perfect. And it doesn't exclude variation, but I think things should (visually) continue to fall within the framework of world they created. Many people don't care, or simply want "more everything" But I respect the artists restraint more than the option of no limitations.

I honestly feel the Male Elementalists visual style is weak, even within the framework of the game. There are npc characters & elements that make for a better elementalist style than what they have, and I think the Ancient is starting to head that way.

I agree that both a unique style and the artists intentions are important. However, Guild Wars is a collaborative effort and exists in an industry that depends on sales. In being what it is, and I think ArenaNet does a very good job of this, the game also should be receptive to the feedback of the players. You, I, and a numerous other people feel that visual style is weak in some areas. Other people love it. I'm not so bold as to say I want more of everything or that I want them to go back and change anything. What is already, is. But as with any art, the designs in Guild Wars are open to constructive criticism. As with any "artist", and I use the word loosely because ArenaNet is a collective instead of an entity, the producers ultimately get to make the decision of what to do with that criticism. For me, I hope that they will re-evaluate the framework in which they design their armors, and offer new options for some of the designs in the future.

Additionally, we previously mentioned the transition from concept art to 3D models. Obviously I am not so naive as to think they will be identical, but occasionally I feel that the art jobs are rushed or that the effort put into them was subpar. Some concepts genuinely look superior to how they actually appear in game. I've seen pictures of elementalist armor that looked much better on paper than they did in game... or look maybe at the Exalted Aegis shield? It's a beautiful design, and a great end-of-game item, except that they made it a single flat texture that shows on both the front and the back! The result is, unfortunately, a shield that looks like you're holding a sheet of printed tin-foil. I would concede that, on occassion, the framework may not be the problem, but the effort put into making the original vision into the final work... though I would still very much love to see action on the three points I laid out in the first entry.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daemon Dremora

i do understand why some people would want to change the armor of the eles, but on the other hand i don't. i think that if the person wants to spend money to look a certain way then that is up to them, and if some people don't like it, then blow it off and continue with your life. it is not affecting you in any serious way. unless your eyes are going to blow out of your head because you looked at something that looks so "skanky".

I realize that this thread has been caught in the "whether or not to wear provocative armor" debate for awhile now, but I'd like to reiterate that the original purpose of this thread was to discuss the limitations and future directions that ArenaNet could (hopefully) take in the future in regards to armor design.

I do agree that it's nobody else's business what a particular player likes to equip their own character with.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jecht Scye

What's with the flaming? If someone thinks one way about armor isn't that their opinion? Some guys don't like women to wear something skanky, some guys don't care, and some guys like it.

Sounds sensible to me.

ArcaneApostle · Nov 30, 2006, 02:40 AM // 02:40

I vote in favor of more diverse armor options (which are more able to be interchangeable) and the ability for the players to choose whether their character is more fantastic (pajama-armor) or realistic (armor-armor). I have no problem with this stuff existing as long as there are alternatives, but I can sympathize with those who are a bit annoyed by the fact that everyone in the game looks like a freaking supermodel. Ergo, I also think that we should be able to chose the body type of our character (allowing players to choose between endomorph, exomorph, and mesomorph; right now male characters are restricted to the third and females to the first).

Oh yes, and the option to not have your necromancer hunch; is that really that hard to implement? It would make the Elonian necromancers look slightly less...gross (that's imho, but it's an option here).

xBakox · Nov 30, 2006, 02:52 AM // 02:52

Right on a ndy. I agree with most of what you said, and you said so much I can't even remember what I was going to disagree with you on.

Personally I think more variety would be good. As said, more ele armors that arent skin tight and such. That one concept art which was posted earlier was very nice and, minus the cape perhaps, make a great ele armor.

About the deal with the scantily clad stuff. IG, I think they should add more covered armors but keep a few provocative armors as well. Again, its vareity. A choice. Something many classes dont have

. IRL I agree with what a ndy said about it. All my friends dress that way, and maybe it makes some people uncomfortable because of some social or sexual disorder or shyness, but I dont mind it. Its the normal now.

Darksun · Nov 30, 2006, 02:57 AM // 02:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by a_ndy

I agree that both a unique style and the artists intentions are important. However, Guild Wars is a collaborative effort and exists in an industry that depends on sales. In being what it is, and I think ArenaNet does a very good job of this, the game also should be receptive to the feedback of the players. You, I, and a numerous other people feel that visual style is weak in some areas. Other people love it. I'm not so bold as to say I want more of everything or that I want them to go back and change anything. What is already, is. But as with any art, the designs in Guild Wars are open to constructive criticism. As with any "artist", and I use the word loosely because ArenaNet is a collective instead of an entity, the producers ultimately get to make the decision of what to do with that criticism. For me, I hope that they will re-evaluate the framework in which they design their armors, and offer new options for some of the designs in the future.

True, and how they descide what is valid input is part of keeping to that theme. I was lucky enought to get picked for my Gavel of the Nephilim design, and a big part of that (I think) was how well it fit into the design. I had to change my style somewhat to fit what was already in the game. Whereas I normally have a more exaggerated, anime style, I scaled back and used some of the sculpture elements from GW concepts.

I certainly agree that there can be a place where the arists & the people meet and they say "welcome to our world, what would you like to see in this place". Also I trust the artistic vision of Anet more than the general public. In the US we have drunken college idiots, whiney rich 13year olds & the occasional thinker giving their input.

This creates an environment where many people's input has the creative juice of a rock giving sway over the game, so you have to pick and choose who you listen to. The common visual motif of the game is the perfect middleground, and you can go from there. That's why I feel you can't just have any kind of design. Change & variation is great, but the design of the game needs some common ground or it'll go all over the place. So I say stick with the theme, and enjoy the different tones & hues of the world, without comprimising the world as a unified whole.

a_ndy · Nov 30, 2006, 03:24 AM // 03:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by xBakox

All my friends dress that way, and maybe it makes some people uncomfortable because of some social or sexual disorder or shyness, but I dont mind it. Its the normal now.

Um... actually I think you might have misinterpreted my piont. I don't think that people that don't approve of dressing that way suffer from any kind of disorder. In fact, all my friends dress quite modestly. But, you are right that I don't really think it matters either way. People have the right to choose and decide for themselves.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darksun

True, and how they descide what is valid input is part of keeping to that theme. I was lucky enought to get picked for my Gavel of the Nephilim design, and a big part of that (I think) was how well it fit into the design. I had to change my style somewhat to fit what was already in the game. Whereas I normally have a more exaggerated, anime style, I scaled back and used some of the sculpture elements from GW concepts.

I certainly agree that there can be a place where the arists & the people meet and they say "welcome to our world, what would you like to see in this place". Also I trust the artistic vision of Anet more than the general public. In the US we have drunken college idiots, whiney rich 13year olds & the occasional thinker giving their input.

This creates an environment where many people's input has the creative juice of a rock giving sway over the game, so you have to pick and choose who you listen to. The common visual motif of the game is the perfect middleground, and you can go from there. That's why I feel you can't just have any kind of design. Change & variation is great, but the design of the game needs some common ground or it'll go all over the place. So I say stick with the theme, and enjoy the different tones & hues of the world, without comprimising the world as a unified whole.

There's a lot of meat here, and I don't know if I can really give a just response to it. I have to say, the direction of armors in the game is something that I feel quite strongly about as I've been hoping to see some changes for a long time.

You're right that Guild Wars has a unique visual style. Even pushing the boundaries, there are places that it can't go. It can't go to a cartoony World of Warcraft style. We can't switch over and have a cel-shaded item randomly inserted. But I do think there is room for change. Room to push the boundaries out farther than they are and to appeal to more people (myself included) then it currently does.

Sure there are a lot of people out there who might not be qualified to make suggestions, but then maybe they are. In any case, I trust that ArenaNet can weed through the good ideas and the bad, or at least try.

I was very impressed to hear that your Gravel of Nephilim was chosen... that's a great accomplishment, and I applaud you for it. Still, I can't help but wonder if they really wouldn't have chosen it had you not scaled it back.

I really think that the art can still be pushed farther or in different directions without compromising the unity of the world that ArenaNet has created. Weapons that are more exaggerated can still work within the context of the visual style, like the huge and coveted hammer Vera, or perhaps something a touch bigger and more ornamented than a Fellblade. If they implemented your elementalist armor (even without the cape, since GW already has Guild capes and two capes would likely not work) and it really looked like that, I certainly would be more motivated to make an elementalist.

But really, I think in a world as playful as one where people can dress up as Candy Corn and be under the influence of "The Avatar of Sweetness", we can break or at least push the current limits of armor design without destroying the integrity of the game's artistic vision.

Darksun · Nov 30, 2006, 04:23 AM // 04:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by a_ndy

I was very impressed to hear that your Gravel of Nephilim was chosen... that's a great accomplishment, and I applaud you for it. Still, I can't help but wonder if they really wouldn't have chosen it had you not scaled it back.

I really think that the art can still be pushed farther or in different directions without compromising the unity of the world that ArenaNet has created. Weapons that are more exaggerated can still work within the context of the visual style, like the huge and coveted hammer

There certainly room for ridiculous designs. Heck the Gavel of the Nephilim wasn't even 'supposed' to be that small. I think we agree there is room for change and branching out, I just tend to be a bit more cautious about it. I think the Necro Ancient is a case where they went crazy with an idea and it looks plain silly. I also notice how some npc have the most awesome looking armor: (Duke Barradin, General Morgahn, Margrid the Sly, Koss, Kormir) I really look forward to getting armor for my characters, it's one of my personal goals in the game. To outfit my characters the way I want them in function, but even more so visually. I did feel like NF was kind of a let down in that area, and noticed less armors available than previously, but the new Elite location & armor options have me intrigued. I felt the quality of the armor style is week on quite a few of the new armor sets.

a_ndy · Nov 30, 2006, 04:58 AM // 04:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darksun

I really look forward to getting armor for my characters, it's one of my personal goals in the game. To outfit my characters the way I want them in function, but even more so visually.

I agree wholeheartedly. That's why the whole issue of improving or expanding the types of armor that exist in areas where there's nothing I like, and where the sentiment is widespread among others (despite the large number of armors available), is important to me.

Quote:

There certainly room for ridiculous designs. Heck the Gavel of the Nephilim wasn't even 'supposed' to be that small. I think we agree there is room for change and branching out, I just tend to be a bit more cautious about it.

Caution is fine. I think as long as things progress, it'll make me happy. I liked the armors in Prophecies (and you're right, I'd definitely like to get my hands on Duke Barradin's armor), but after that there were very few things that impressed me. There certainly are some ridiculous things out there. And I think there are a lot of places future designs could go that are more innovative, more attractive, and less ridiculous than those things.

I have to admit though, it would have been nicer if they made your hammer bigger.

BahamutKaiser · Nov 30, 2006, 05:28 AM // 05:28

Half of my characters are women and the rest men characters, I think I would get bored of playing all too simular characters, and unless it is a character I can relate to, I would rather have some eye candy. I certainly did go with female ritualist with exotic armor, I barely ever play it, but it looks good in the line up :P

I will say that some more attrative... or actually, impressive armors should be made for the male characters. There are some elementist pants which arn't super skin tight...... well, maybe not really. I could definently see them wearing much looser fitting closes, but, I mean, they basicly stapled dork on their forhead with that dance, I feel that was the identity they wanted for it. I ironicly, if they every improve enough elementist skills to bring me back to the class, I will probably delete my first character and make a female elementist, just because the male one is just pathetic.

As for the asymetrical armor, I feel it is natural among combat classes. The Ranger holds his bow in one hand, and fires arrows in the other, the Warrior wields his swords in one hand, and a shield in the other, the different hands denote different functions, and likewise different functions also apply to the armor. It is rather realistic IMO. Reguardless though, they could definetly stand to provide some alternatives for those who want symetrical armor, reguardless of which Anet designers perfer, they should be doing their duty by providing alternatives for everyone.

If feel that, with the selectable armor specs and insignias, the armor selections are rather flexible, allowing players to pick whichever they want with the specs they want, so it is pretty flexible already, but as there will be more armors, and there are diverse interests, so meeting as many as possible is just a smart move. There are plenty of people who enjoy the armor they already have, and with insignias on new armors, many of them can be switched around liberally without buying several sets, so people who like what they have, are already accounted for.

Personally..... I am more interested in having personally customized capes, and options which cover the shoulders, and/or cover the front as well. Capes arn't really desirable if you can't match it to your characters armor and style, if they arn't custom, than hide cape will continue to be a favorite option, making this feature pretty worthless.

TsunamiZ · Nov 30, 2006, 06:09 AM // 06:09

i agree there is a definite lacking of armor choices and some professions armor need better variety.